Positive parenting, positive discipline, and infants and toddlers
We know there is no “correct” way to parent, but how do various parenting styles impact our child’s brain development? If there are ways to inherently boost self-regulation skills in a toddler or support a young child’s executive functioning skills, how can we integrate those habits or strategies into our everyday interactions with our infants and toddlers?
On this episode of the Learn With Less podcast, Ayelet sits down with Julietta Skoog, a certified Positive Discipline advanced trainer focusing on parent education in the early years. Julietta is the co-founder of Sproutable, and has developed an online series of digital resources for families with toddlers and preschoolers.
Ayelet and Julietta discuss what “Positive Discipline” is as it relates to infants and toddlers, the developmental science behind some of the positive parenting techniques and strategies with regard to cognitive and social/emotional development, and Julietta’s top tips and resources for families who’d like to start incorporating Positive Discipline into their parenting from day one.
Quick access to links in this episode:
Positive Discipline video series from Sproutable, for families with toddlers and pre-schoolers (affiliate link)
Children: The Challenge, by Rudolf Dreikurs (affiliate link)
Books That Heal blog
Joyful Courage podcast
Connect with us:
Ayelet: Facebook / Instagram / Pinterest / YouTube
Julietta: Website / Facebook / Instagram / YouTube
Text transcript of this episode
Ayelet: Welcome to episode 61 of the Learn With Less podcast.Today I am speaking with Julietta Skoog. Julietta is a certified Positive Discipline advanced trainer with an Ed.S. degree in school psychology and a master’s degree in school counseling from Seattle University.
As a school psychologist and counselor with Seattle public schools since 2005, her trauma informed expertise includes early child development, autism, learning disabilities, anxiety and behavior disorders, as well as leaving friendship groups, classroom lessons, parent education and teacher trainings based on positive discipline, social thinking and mindfulness. Her popular keynote speeches, classes and workshops in Seattle have been described as rejuvenating, motivating, and inspiring, which is why she’s here today.
She co-founded Sproutable in 2016 for parents of children birth to five who need support and tools to navigate the early years while growing remarkable. Sproutable recently launched their online Positive Discipline series for toddlers and preschoolers with videos under five minutes that show these tools in action. Julietta has learned the most from her own three daughters, ages nine, six and 11 months. Julietta, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to Learn With Less.
Julietta: I’m so happy to be here. This is the best way to spend a morning is with you.
Ayelet: I’m so happy to hear it. Obviously, Julietta, you and I have a lot in common, which is why you’re here today and why we’ve connected in the first place. So let’s talk a little bit about that. I’ve asked you of course to come onto the show today to speak about Positive Discipline and the role it plays in relation to brain development, but first let’s just hear a little bit about you. What brought you to the kind of work that you’re doing today and why you’re so passionate about it?
Julietta: Yeah! You know, like you read, I started as a school psychologist and school counselor. I’ve always loved kids. I’ve always known since I was one of those who used to babysit everybody in the neighborhood and babysat for as long as I can remember, so I’ve always worked with kids. And then as a school psychologist and counselor and this school’s doing a lot of the clinical work and evaluations.
I kept getting younger and younger because I was so passionate about early intervention and felt that I was most helpful in the way that I could help educate parents as well, so not just doing the diagnosing but how can I actually make a difference at home outside of school. So that led me to all the Positive Discipline training and doing all of the parent education that I’ve been doing over the last many years and just it’s so reinforcing when parents are like, oh my gosh, it just made such a difference.
Like our whole family has been changed or I just wish I had you on my shoulder all the time. So I just felt the most helpful when I was educating the parents and then also as I grew my clinical expertise younger and younger, so that really finding the early intervention being the most successful. So really, you know, selfishly, I felt like I could, I can do more the more, the earlier we can intervene.
Ayelet: Well and we know so much about – research-wise that is, of course, when parents and caregivers have information from way early on, we can make the most difference then going forward. So let’s see, tell us what is Positive Discipline as it relates to those infants and toddlers? Can you clarify also for our listeners who might be wondering what’s the difference between positive parenting and Positive Discipline?
Julietta: Yeah, I mean it’s all the same. I think the misnomer is that it just implies you just need to be positive and happy and then your kids are going to totally comply, and everybody’s going to be lovely and there’s gonna be no challenges anymore. There’s going to be no behaviors. They think if you just are positive and they’re friends and suddenly everybody is calm and happy all the time.
So what I try to teach is that Positive Discipline, it really is about being connected. The positive part is about being connected and intentional and the discipline part means to teach. So it really, especially in infants and toddlers, it’s about teaching those skills early on, being intentional about what we want them to be when they’re 25.
So having that long-term road. That to me is like the difference with Positive Discipline versus some of the other styles of parenting is that we keep those long-term skills in mind and we think about, okay, when they’re 25, we want them to be resilient or responsible, independent or happy, confident.
So, what language are we going to use with them now? What skills are we going to teach now so that we can start to grow those seeds and help to build that brain that is more integrated by the time they’re 25, how do we help build that brain to be the best they can be when they’re, when they grow up and you’ve got to start now, right?
All of those neurons need to start now. So it really is about Positive Discipline is about that language that we use with them and then that trusted relationship in terms of consistency and intention. So, you know, even with my own little baby, my 11-month old, it’s how I’m playing with her, how I’m approaching her nap that I just put her down for how I’m approaching her meals and how those interactions are with her sister. It’s how I help facilitate those.
So you know, Positive Discipline with infants and toddlers are about, it’s about that encouragement versus praise, just from that moment that she was born. It’s actually in this amazing, you know, we’ve got the video and the audio from when our children are born and from this baby number three, the first words that came out of my mouth was, “you did it, you’re here!” You know, it’s like, already. I’m encouraging like you can do this so as opposed to the praise of “good girl.” So even as early as that, our language starts to shift that.
And then this real – I think as we’ll talk more about the developmental science, but this idea of connection before corrections. So with our littles and even with the babies and the toddlers, you’re connecting to them or connecting to that right brain, leading them over to their more logical left brain. So we’re just always building in that connection.
Our first before a correction. And then the correction part again is around what are we teaching, how you teach those skills? And then this idea of capability. So just they’re differentiating in those early years between needs and wants. And then again, just to teaching those skills, so reframing, just stopping the behavior, but about giving them those opportunities to grow their brain. So that to me is Positive Discipline in that infant, toddler time.
Ayelet: Yes. That makes so much sense. And I love your example of literally when she came out, you’re, “you did it! Yay!”
Julietta: The even funnier part, I will say, is the doctor who was delivering her is amazing. She goes into, she said at one point that I was like, “you got this, I believe in you!” And she was like, are you talking to me? And I was like, yes, I am!
Actually, I tell my parents that I work with, it’s actually like a fluency of language, when you’re learning a new language, it takes, in the beginning, awhile. It can take a few years before it becomes just more of an automatic so, start it the first day so that you’ve got it when you really need it, when they’re six and seven and eight and 10 and 14.
Ayelet: And I love that this is how we make those great kids. This is how we make good humans. So I want to talk more about that because of course that is why we are all here, right? As parents, we want to have a little bit of that backing to make us feel like we’re not just screwing it up.
Because I think for all of us, we all feel that way either every once in a while or every day and depending on the season of parenting, it is hard, so obviously we want those tools to know to help us feel validated in what we’re doing and why what we’re doing is quote unquote “right thing to do” and of course there is no such thing as the right way to parent, but I want to hear a little bit about the developmental science behind some of these Positive Discipline techniques and strategies with regard to cognitive development and social and emotional development. Can you talk a little bit about that for us, Julietta?
Julietta: I can. And I appreciate you know, the difference also with Positive Discipline is that it doesn’t say “this is the right way to do it.” Because, what is important for you? What values, what compass do you want as a family for when they’re 25, and then that creates your roadmap and then having developmental science behind it and the research to back you up on that gives you that confidence to just relax into it and be into your own integrated brain so that you can be creative and mindful and in the moment and not be in your fight or flight part of the brain.
Just reacting, which often happens. That’s okay too, but the more that we practice that other part, so I think for me these early years, the brain science that Dan Siegel has brought to us, just the neuroscience around just the integrated brain. So again, this understanding of executive functioning and the prefrontal cortex in our children is not yet wired until really they’re 25. So all of these ways that we… So let me put it this way, the techniques that we’ve been talking about in Positive Discipline is now reinforced by this brain science.
So, when we think about something as simple as routines, why do we want to set up routines as early as possible? Why do we want to have them visual? Why do we practice them with our kids? Why don’t they get it the first time. I’ve told them to wash their hands a thousand times after that. All those things like, why is that? Why do we need to do it? Why can’t we just let it go? Or just have a couple of days where we can be relaxed, or relax on the weekends and then why do they melt down on Sunday night?
You know, the understanding of the brain science behind that is really fascinating, so what he talks about is the brain in the palm of the hand and this fight or flight response in our oldest part of the brain, and so the more that we can help our kids stay in that prefrontal cortex builds their executive functioning and then there’s lots of research coming out of Harvard – the Center for Developing Children at Harvard is a great resource as well. And so they reinforce that as well in some of their papers about how the executive functioning skills can be developed through establishing routines, by modeling social behavior, creating and maintaining these supportive and reliable relationships and you know, helps every time that we’re connecting in that way.
Then I’m going to use, I know people can see me here, so I’m going to show this model that Dr. Siegel uses, that we can bring our brain back to this integrated prefrontal cortex. And then that builds the executive functioning skills. Now in our little ones, they need all the practice they can get with that because that creates this neurological loop. So I almost think of it as like tightening the lid and when they are in that part of the brain, it’s going to manifest in a lot of different ways.
They’re going to be able to hold themselves back, not be so impulsive. They’re gonna be able to have better delayed gratification. You’ll be able to plan and organize and get creative and you know, it just kind of manifests in a lot of other different ways. I think that’s been the exciting research. First of all, it’s just our understanding about executive functioning, development, prefrontal cortex, just growth in general, right and left brain, peaks and valleys.
Like, I always knew from working with kids with the four year olds were just so tough, like started off tough at two and then got harder and harder and now I understand, oh it’s because that right brain’s starting to develop more at three and then it peaks at four, you know, no wonder. And so as a parent, even with my own, I was able to relax when she was losing her mind, instead of saying, what’s wrong with you?
I was like, oh, she’s hit her new developmental peak – yay! You, know, it’s a milestone, it’s like teething, right? That’s been really helpful. And then the other interesting – just two other points I’ll touch on briefly is Dr Lieberman is a psychologist who talks about the research where the same part of the brain that experiences verbal abuse is the same part of the brain that experiences physical pain.
I think that has been really eye opening for a lot of parenting implications when it moved away from in the eighties more of a physical style of parenting to, really, it ended up just being more verbal – they just transferred that thinking to being more verbal and I think now we understand that no, the connecting and you know, making their brain feels safe is important.
It’s not only because we’re going to get the behavior that we’re asking for and that we’re looking for, but it’s just as damaging as if we went for physical punishment. And then the other part that I had the last point just in terms of development I think is that, you know, our little ones are wired actually for focus and for independent, like they really are wired to do it themselves and figure it out and in this day and age, I think our parenting if we’re late or we’re busy or so we’re throwing their pants on for them or, or taking them away from that one activity when they’re actually naturally wired developmentally to just be into something and then we get frustrated when we’re like, oh they’re not listening to us or they won’t just do it faster.
So I think that parenting would implication for me has been just to allow them more space for those adaptive skill development in themselves. Give them opportunities to feed themselves to – for toileting, for all those kinds of actions. Gross motor development, fine motor development, you know, just allowing them the space and time to do that because they are wired for that.
Ayelet: I think it’s really important what you just said, that connection piece for families. Because I think we do, like you said, we get into that mode of, okay, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, because we are so routines-based that for instance, I can give an example from my life when on Monday, Wednesday or Friday, my four-year old needs, we need to get out of the house, get to preschool at a certain time.
It’s the same routine every single time, but he struggles with it every single time and it’s hard because for me, of course I want him to be able to do it on his own and over a period of a week or two I was like, oh my gosh, why can’t he do this? It’s the same thing everyday. I know he’s able to. What is wrong with him? Clearly it’s not about him. It’s about giving the space, when we are able to.
I realized, okay, I need to make actually a visual schedule for him. I need him to be able to see what the steps are that he can do. I need to put that in front of him. I need to give him the tools so that we all have the tools to get there so he can feel successful and get out the door when he needs to, how he needs to.
Julietta: And I think understanding, too, that you’re – there’s nothing wrong like people think that… like, you are not alone, you are not alone! Like, for them, the routine is a practice. Just like for me, I can’t be perfect with my making up and popping out of bed every single morning either, or washing my face every night or whatever. Like I mean I’m lucky if I, if I were like, let’s just be honest, I’m lucky if I get a shower.
But it’s not you, but I think understanding some of the brain, like when you are, you know, going through the routine in the morning and you’ve got your visual -also understanding when we ask a question versus just telling them what to do, gets their brain back into problem solving mode. Like, where are your shoes or what do we, you know, what do we need to do before we get our coat on or what you know…
Ayelet: And also how we say it, of course – “well come on, where are your shoes,” right? I mean we’ve all done that. We do that! We’re human, but I think your connection –
Julietta: But I think all of that, understanding that that’s just where they are and we expect them to have the same bains as us and just knowing it is a practice as instead of a perfection for us as parents, but then I’m as children.
Ayelet: Yes, and I think your connection between the fact that they need practice developmentally to acquire these skills – and these are skills, these are adaptive skills, these are fine motor skills, these are cognitive skills, right? Problem solving, sequencing, inferencing, all of those things are developmental skills and like anything else in a three or four year old and in a one or two year old, we need to give them the tools of, of scaffolding, of helping them get to the next level so that they can be successful, which of course is a complete reframing for us as parents, especially as they get older and they are seemingly more independent (and they are of course in some ways and not in others).
It is so hard. So Julietta, I really am excited about you giving us a few tips, but first we’re just going to take a break to hear a word from our sponsors and then we’re going to hear those tips and resources from Julietta about her favorite ways to help families get started with Positive Discipline, and then you know additional resources she recommends to families interested in seeking out more.
Ayelet: Okay. Julietta, let’s hear those tips. Share with us your top tips. I don’t know how many you have, we’ll take them all, for families who’d like to start incorporating Positive Discipline into their parenting, whether it’s from day one or from today.
Julietta: So definitely the connection before correction, I think, is key. Even with my little infant, as I’m going to wipe her down from her messy cereal, if I just went right in and just rubbed her face and pulled out of the high chair… you know, as much as I can have a little sweet smile and sing a little song. That connection piece is just as important as it is with my older children and with my own mom or my or my husband, you know.
So that is, I think just a nice reminder always is that connection before correction. The other thing is that kids are more capable than you think. And so Rudolph Dreikurs was actually an Adlerian psychologist who wrote “Children: The Challenge,” that was kind of the foundation for later Positive Discipline, that whole framework, and he said “never do for a child what they can do for themselves.”
In a vacuum, that would be great. I know we also have our regular life, but I think just, just thinking about that, you know, kids are more capable than you think and kind of let go, like back off a little bit. That’s been so much fun with my third. Now I’m just like all like, oh, they are just so resilient!
Ayelet: I can relate to that. It’s so much easier the second time around to do that.
Julietta: If you’re just starting out, just allow them to just try to just instead of being so hands on, just back off and just watch them thrive and then come in. So, so raise the bar higher, I would say. Kids are just way more capable than you think. The other thing that I would love, that’s a classic Positive Discipline tool, is family meetings.
So, if you can start this on day one, with this last baby we had one when she was four days and it was just the sweetest thing. So it doesn’t matter if you’re a family of two, if it’s just you and your little one as a single parent, if it’s you and your parenting partner, and you want to start when you’re pregnant.
We started when my oldest was six months in her high chair, so just this idea of weekly coming together, having compliments, having that sense of encouragement for problem solving and having this beautiful exchange of language and communication and modeling and so you can find more about family meetings – we do a lot of that with Sproutable and I think that’s a great, wonderful, wonderful mini thing you can do – 15 minutes, once a week. That just leads to those more long-term gifts that you want to be growing. So family meetings is great. And it’s not the family meetings that you grew up with. “Kids, we’re having a family meeting.”
Ayelet: Right, this is not a disciplinary technique. Can you explain a little bit more? What does that look like? I know that you have so many resources on your website and we’ll get to that…
Julietta: Just 15 minutes once a week you get together. Everybody gives everybody a compliment, so even if your little infant, toddler, say two year old can barely talk, use Sign Language – you can say thank you or you give them the voice. You’re saying “thank you, Papa, for doing the laundry this week,” you know, or “thank you, Mama, for taking me to the park,” so everybody gives everybody a compliment and it’s really a beautiful modeling, too, when you’re seeing grownups speak to each other in this way.
And then you talk about previous items from the week before. So how are contributions going, how’s the new nap time schedule going, or whatever issue that came up. Last night, my daughter goes, “I want to put something on the agenda.” I was like, Ooh, what? She goes, when you are done with when the toilet paper roll is out, people need to change the toilet paper. I was like, that is a great item to put on the agenda.
So then you go to your news, your new items and then talk about your week and then close with a little high five and a plan for family fun. So just making connection and it’s just, you know, the, the skills that are brought from just that little moment. It’s amazing communication and mutual respect, problem solving, you know, it’s just, it’s just lovely. So we feel, we just feel better later. So then we’re able to be better parents, you know, we’re able to then go off into our next routine, more mindful and more connected with them.
The other, the last two tips, I will say, one we touched on is routines, and I think you said it lovely, you know, thinking about routines, not just the bedtime routine or the nap-time team, but routines happen all the time. So think about your day, maybe it is your, you know, you’re off to preschool in the morning or maybe it’s the transition to grandmother’s house that it’s the same routine that they go from school to that or the routine that’s… we had a real routine right after lunch just to get to nap because there were so many steps involved in that.
You know, kids need to have it sliced thinner and thinner and thinner. So just being explicit about what comes next. It doesn’t have to look like Martha Stewart, but have a little visual for kids so that they know that they feel like they take ownership of that. So you’re saying what’s next in your routine? What are you going to do after this? What books are you picking up for your routine, you know, how are you going to get out of the bath tonight so that it’s not… because I think a lot of times parents just do limited choices as the only tool all day long and the kids have like choices coming out of their ears, you know, but when you just keep it within the routine, then you can sprinkle in the other techniques of asking versus telling, or having those limited choices, or having the fun little connection, but under that framework.
So taking time for training is key and practicing and then shifting around. So I would really, I think that that is often most helpful for parents that I worked with in a coaching setting. When we just help refresh their routine. Sometimes we’re stuck on the same one from when they were 18 months old and now they’re 22 months. They need a new one! So, refresh your routines.
And then, the last piece I would say, is this encouragement and growth mindset. So as we talked about earlier, just changing your language to change their behavior. So using the language, “I noticed…” I noticed you’re so focused on that puzzle right now! Or, I see you’re trying to pull your pants up! Or, you know, my little one it’s just trying to walk, “you’re standing!” I have no judgment. I’m not saying “good girl,” I’m not – none of that!
It’s just this, like, holding space for their effort and for their own intrinsic motivation and sense of self. So I think those are my… I would say get that going. I want to just say one more thing about routines, as a depleted mom of three. That also having our – modeling our routines, so having self care is part of that or whatever that could look like. I think it’s that modeling piece of if we want them to have these long term gifts, they’re going to learn it from our modeling, so…
Ayelet: I think so much of what you have said today is all about modeling to them what we want them to connect and do back to us, right? And whether that is using language that’s about, you know, how they are expressing their emotions or how we are expressing our emotions, how we talk to each other as a family, how we get through the day.
I mean all of those things. Those are such basic and such important tools and I love the way that you have given us a few tools to work that in like a family meeting. I love that. I mean literally whether it’s like what was going well with you? You had a great big poopy diaper. I mean like it can be everything, right? It’s, all of those things are…
Julietta: Yeah, and we have that framework when they’re babies and when they’re little, then it’s just automatic when you really… I mean, I’m telling you now with a 9 and 6-year old, like, it’s amazing that we’ve had this framework and this practice because now it just runs so smoothly, you know, to have those kinds of meetings and routines. My friend was over last night and she was like, what are your kids doing? My kids were making their lunch, kindergarten, third grade.
She was like, how long have you been in making your lunch? My daughter was like, since I was in kindergarten! As toddlers, making her snack and doing little things and having them involved, but it just organically grows up and I love when you said, Ayelet, that even just like how we, why do we talk about feelings and like now we know in brain science that it actually changes that amygdala part of the brain that makes the brain feels safer and so you’re right, like just being able to say, “yeah, you feel scared” or “you’re tired right now” or “you’re feeling hungry.” Like, giving them that kind of vocabulary.
It’s so simple like you said, but when we have that understanding of the why and help reinforce it for us as parents that you know, what we’re doing is important and also what we’re doing intuitively. I think that part, so many parents, we’re doing this stuff. I don’t need to say it. It’s like, you’re doing this intuitively and naturally and just now you know how it’s really going to help even more so keep doing it.
Ayelet: Exactly. And I think, I mean a lot of people think, well, oh gosh, well isn’t that already intuitive? I’ve had a few friends say things like, well, I already do that. I already know that. Well, exactly! And now when you have the information about the brain science and about the developmental research and why to do it, then it does is it incentivizes to do it more and to get into that habit.
Julietta: Yes. And to teach your kids about it! So, I’m able to say to my kiddos when they’re like, “oh but I wanna…” and I say, “oh, I know that it’s hard, and it grows your brain when you wait! You got this!”
Ayelet: That’s great. I’m so going to use that today. Thank you. Perfect. Okay, awesome. Julietta, can you share a few of your favorite resources for families who’d like to learn more, start practicing some of these things?
Julietta: Yeah, so I’m actually going to show you just a couple of out of the box the resources, too, so that your listeners kind of round out already what you’ve offered. You offer such amazing… you’re the hub! So, one is a great resource that I’ve used for years as a psychologist and it’s a blog by a school counselor on the east coast and it’s called “Books That Heal,” and I just think books are such a powerful way to teach kids and you know, we start reading to them from the beginning as well.
And so whenever there’s a topic that comes up for you or just Mike when you’re going to fill out your birthday list to get to grandma, you know, she has lists by topics that you could just even type in – you know, divorce or feelings or friendship or grief and loss. It’s just a wonderful resource and it’s targeted towards those very early years, so the early childhood years really covers through early elementary. So I definitely recommend “books that heal.” I just think books are a huge way to teach anything and everything.
Another resource is the Joyful Courage podcast. There is just in terms of the principles that we’ve talked to today, just having another forum for hearing lots of different, like you talked about, all the different positive parenting styles. There’s so many different names out there and wonderful people and for me it’s just nice because I’m so busy. It’s a chance like if I’m walking to go pick up my kids from school or driving in the car to get to a client that I can just hear a little, a little soundbite because I don’t feel bogged down by, you know, a ton of books, either.
So I think that’s been, I think that’s another, just a resource in terms of that, that positive discipline, parenting style. And then the last one I would say, you know, our online series that is focused on toddlers. We take all of these principles and hone in on just that five minutes of a video that takes my two-hour class and condenses it into this concept, and then we’ve got handouts and content and downloads and action plans that go with it only if you wanted to go more.
So I think in terms of a resource that can help go deeper into things like you were saying with family meetings and with routines and connection before correction. Understanding that growth mindset, encouragement versus praise – that’s our online series, so great feedback so far. Fantastic.
Ayelet: I love it. From what I’ve seen it is just incredible. Everyone should go check that out. Fantastic. Thanks so much Julietta, and thank you for coming and thanks to all of the participants in the Learn With Less® Curriculum Online Program for families who are here listening live. We are going to continue the discussion and open up for a Q&A session. I see we already have one or two questions in the chat for you guys in just a minute, but for everyone listening from home or from on the go, thanks so much for joining us and we will see you next time.
